ສົນທະນາຂອງຜູ້ໃຊ້:Tuinui

ຈາກ Wiktionary
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I'm active (as a Sysop) at Lao Wikipedia. Please refer to [໑] for more info on me and my activities there. Can someone kindly tell me how to

(1) upload dictionary (free and created by me) in csv format, and <- using a bot to do so
(2) participate in localization of the interface. <- requesting to become a sysop

Thank you. (Tuinui ໐໑:໕໙, ໑໖ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC))

ສະບາຍດີຕຸ້ຍນຸ່ຍ ຕອນແຮກຂ້ອຍມາທີ່ນີ່ເພາະເຫັນວ່າວິກເຊິນແນຣີພາສາລາວ ບໍ່ມີເນື້ອໃນແຕ່ຢ່າງໃດ ຂ້ອຍຈຶງມາຊ່ວຍ ແຕ່ກໍ້ບໍ່ໄດ້ຄິດວ່າຈະໃຊ້ບອຕຂະໜາດນີ້ ອືມ...ເຮັດຢ່າງໄສເຖິງຈະໃຫ້ບອຕເຮັດງານແທນເຮົາໃດ ຂອບໃຂຫຼາຍ... --Passawuth ໐໕:໒໗, ໒໒ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC)
ສະບາຍດີ ພະສະວຸດ(?), ທ່ານ ສາມາດເບິ່ງວິທີການໃຊ້ບອຕ ຢູ່ ນີ້. ເລືອກພາສາໂປແກຣມ ທີ່ທ່ານ ຊຳນານຊິງ່າຍກ່ວາ. ຂ້ອຍ ໃຊ້ python. ຂ້ອຍພວມພະຍາຍາມຫາວິທີ ສ້າງຄຳສັບພາສາ ອັງກິດ, ໄທ, ຍີ່ປຸ່ນ ແລະອື່ນໆແບບເຄິ່ງອັດຕະໂນມັດ ຢູ່ ວິກເຊິນແນຣີສະບັບພາສາລາວນີ້ ແລະ ຫວັງວ່າມັນຈະເປັນ ປະໂຫຍດແກ່ຄົນໃຊ້ພາສາລາວ. (Tuinui ໑໔:໐໙, ໒໒ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC))
In fact I'm ກາຍ@lo.wikipedia :) Just create other account name in this wiktionary :P I'm running python bot and even edit it for my benefit ! But, I don't know the python code so much and have no idea what code do you use to copy/paste in this wiktionary.

P.S. Using XP, can't type Laos until I use my normal computer one. --Passawuth ໑໕:໓໕, ໒໒ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC)

You mean ກາຍ is Passawuth! So far I used pagefromfile.py (from wikipediabot) to add new articles and wikipedia.py to add new text. I am trying to find way to create bot that will copy necessary text from other language versions and paste them here in Lao version semi-autometically. Please tell me if you know how to accomplish this. (Tuinui ໑໗:໐໘, ໒໒ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC))
ຢ່າງທີ່ຂ້ອຍຮູ້ Python ມັນແມ່ນພາສາຄອມພິວເຕີໜຶ່ງທີ່ຄວບຄຸມຍາກ ຂ້ອຍເອງຂຽນ Java ໄດ້ບ້າງ ແຕ່ກໍ້ບໍ່ຮູ້ວິທີທີ່ເຈັ້າຖາມ ເພາະວ່າມັນຕ້ອງຮຽນການຂຽນໂປຣແກຣມຂັ້ນສູງ ຫຼືອ ຮຽນມາຈົນຊຳນານ ແລ້ວກໍ້ບໍ່ໃຊ່ວ່າຮຽນພາສາໂປແກຣມດຽວ ແຕ່ຕ້ອງຮຽນຫຼາຍພາສາ ຈຶງຈະຮູ້ວ່າພາສາໂປແກຣມໄສ ແມ່ນເໝາະສົມກັບການໃຊ້ງານຢ່າງທີ່ຕ້ອງການ ສະເໜີວ່າ ໃຫ້ຄັດລອກ ແລະ ວາງ ເອົາເອງ ຫຼັງຈາກນັ້ນຄ່ອຍດັດແກ້ເປັນພາສາລາວ ຂ້ອຍເອງກໍ້ຄົງຄິດໄດ້ພຽງນີ້ແຫຼະ ຂອບໃຈຫຼາຍທີ່ບອກວິທີເຮັດ automatique import ໃຫ້ ຂ້ອຍໄດ້ນຳໄປເຮັດງານຈິງແລ້ວທີ່ວິກເຊິນແນຣີພາສາໄທ --Passawuth ໐໖:໔໕, ໒໓ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC)
Can you be online now ? Please !!! --Passawuth ໑໑:໔໔, ໒໙ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC)
Everytime you are working, you should be online ! --Passawuth ໐໖:໕໙, ໓໐ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC)


Thanks![ແກ້ໄຂ]

:) Thanks for your welcome, Tuinui. Unfortunately I cannot speak Lao and have currently no references of the language at hand (so little in the internet... :( ). Actually, I could visualize Lao on my screen for first time about 5 or 6 days ago (I couldn't find fonts!). All my contributions here are just what I could work out by analyzing pages of lo.wikt and googling guesses about Lao. Could you please provide translations to Lao of these languages (or at least some of them... or a few others):

  • Spanish -
  • German -
  • French -
  • Russian -
  • Icelandic -
  • Vietnamese -
  • Burmese -
  • .....

I have put the translations on your talk page.(Tuinui ໐໐:໔໙, ໑໗ ພຶດສະພາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC))

I'll add Spanish content once I know how to write "Spanish" in Lao! :). Regards! --Piolinfax ໐໒:໓໐, ໑໖ ພຶດສະພາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC)

Great! Thanks a lot! I am creating a few Lao words in es.wikt to link them up with the ones here. Once I finish them I'll add some Spanish entries here (and please, be patient with me if I make mistakes. I am not very used to Lao yet :( ) --Piolinfax ໐໐:໔໓, ໑໗ ພຶດສະພາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC)

Interwiki links between wiktionaries[ແກ້ໄຂ]

I have just made this change because interwiki links between wiktionaries are literal, not by concept (that is the way it is in wikipedias, but not in wiktionaries). Anyway, if you have put more interwiki links like that, it is not a big problem: bots like User:RobotGMwikt will deal with them sooner or later. I just mention it to you so that you can stop adding conceptual interwiki links. After all, they are extra work for you :). Regards. --Piolinfax ໐໓:໐໕, ໑໖ ພຶດສະພາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC)

Don't worry about the mistakes. I would add some Spanish from my one month Spanish class that I took few years back and will make mistake too! By the way isn't it very late at night over there now? (Tuinui ໐໐:໔໙, ໑໗ ພຶດສະພາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC))
About the conceptual translation, that was the mistake I made when I first came here. I think there are only a few of them. I am not add the interwiki link this way anymore. (Tuinui ໐໐:໕໖, ໑໗ ພຶດສະພາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC))
Yes, indeed. It is a bit late here (2:16 AM) but now (for a change) my internet connection is working very well, so I have to take advantage of it! :) Regards! --Piolinfax ໐໑:໑໙, ໑໗ ພຶດສະພາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC) So you know some Spanish? ¡Bien! :) --Piolinfax ໐໑:໒໑, ໑໗ ພຶດສະພາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC)
Enjoy yourselves! :) --Piolinfax ໐໒:໓໘, ໑໗ ພຶດສະພາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC)

A colourful favour[ແກ້ໄຂ]

Could you write for me the word for "rainbow" (hu:ng5 gi:n1 na:m5), please? I copied the word some hours ago from a tiny library dictionary but I am unable to duplicate it on my computer by copying and pasting Lao letters ... or maybe I am but the word is not in internet yet (quite unlikely... I must have done something wrong). Thanks! Regards --Piolinfax ໐໓:໔໗, ໑໗ ພຶດສະພາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC)

Sorry for the late reply. Here you are ຮຸ້ງກິນນໍ້າ (hu:ng5 gi:n1 na:m5). This word means literaly a hu:ng5 (an animal) is drinking water. This maybe partly because rainbow always appears when or after the rain. So sometime ຮຸ້ງ or ສາຍຮຸ້ງ may be used instead. Regards. (Tuinui ໑໕:໑໕, ໑໗ ພຶດສະພາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC))
How interesting! Is ຮຸ້ງ an animal in general or an specific one (a kind of mammal, of reptile, of bird, etc..)? Thank you very much, Tuinui! :). Thanks for the other translations as well! --Piolinfax ໐໐:໒໖, ໑໘ ພຶດສະພາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC)
I think it is an animal in imagination like many others that we have in Asia. Thanks for the capitalization. I am going out again. This is how weekends are overhere. That's why I have my bots worked up all night yesterday :(. One question. Are you in Spain? Just want to know when is the best time to respond or work with you. Best regards. (Tuinui ໐໑:໓໐, ໑໘ ພຶດສະພາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC))
Thanks once again! :)I am in London. But never mind much about our being "synchronized". So far I only can work in lo.wikt from my computer (the only one around with the Lao fonts installed), my internet connection is not always reliable, I have quite odd timetables along the week and I often work in more than one Wikimedia project so answering your question tends to be very difficult! Anyway, you should not apologize for what you call your "late reply" because they were not late at all! :). I see that your bot is adding the IPA pronunciation of English words and interwiki links. Excellent! Once RobotGMwikt adds most of the links in the other projects, lo.wikt will be more likely to be noticed by more Wiktionarians :) --Piolinfax ໑໕:໔໗, ໑໘ ພຶດສະພາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC)


Botflag[ແກ້ໄຂ]

Maybe it is a good idea if you put the botflag on User:TuinuiBot and to User:RobotGMwikt. The botflag marks them as bots and hides the bots changes so that the page of recent changes does not get oversaturated. If you want to see them you can click the link labelled ສະແດງ ບອທ໌ in Special:Recentchanges. If you want to give the botflag to them, you will find the link here. Regards. --Piolinfax ໑໖:໒໐, ໑໘ ພຶດສະພາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC)

Uh-oh! :/... I have just checked the page and it seems there is not a page to grant bot status yet (it should be under "Users and rights"). Is it there? --Piolinfax ໑໖:໒໐, ໑໘ ພຶດສະພາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC)
XD I have just realized that quite probably I cannot see it because I am not a sysop here! XD. Sorry. I think I'll go and have something to eat... my brain needs food and I have not have my luch yet!. Regards --Piolinfax ໑໖:໒໔, ໑໘ ພຶດສະພາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC)
Hi Piolinfax. I tried to the bot flag for my bot on lo.wikipedia but it seemed that I was simply ignored (no any responses). So I am refraining from using he bot there where there are more human editors. If you can help me have the flag, it would be great. Regards. (Tuinui ໒໓:໔໙, ໑໘ ພຶດສະພາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC))
Please keep on using the bot. At this stage the only two human edits are yours and mine so it is not a big problem. Actually, maybe you have already activated the flag, so it would be a good idea to run TuinuiBot to check if it is so. If it has not got the flag yet I will inquiry about it. Regards. --Piolinfax ໐໙:໓໑, ໑໙ ພຶດສະພາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC)
Hi there Piolinfax. You are right about my bot at lo.wikipedia, it seems I have already got the bot flag. I will apply for the bot flag here soon. Thanks for your help. (Tuinui ໑໓:໒໗, ໑໙ ພຶດສະພາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC))


Re: Format of entry[ແກ້ໄຂ]

Hi, Tuinui. The good thing about the bot-created pages is they are consistently equal in format and have common features so, if it is decided to make structural changes in the format, most of the times the bot itself can deal with it. Besides, they can automatically categorize the word as pertaining to this or that language.

  1. I have been doing some tests creating Template:-lo-, Template:-is-, Template:-en- and Template:-es- (not many, just in case) following the pattern in many wiktionaries I know. These could be used as headings of language. The good thing about using templates for headings is they can be changed as many times as needed in only one place and the changes will be immediate in the whole wiktionary. The heading design can be easily changed if the current one is not suitable or another one would be better. Anyway, using these templates is not a mandatory thing. On the other side, if you think they would be useful, the bot could easily replace things like ພາສາເອັສປາໂຍນ by {{-es-}}. But there is no hurry so far about this so far.
  2. On the other side, I think it would be a good idea if the bot could add the new words (or at least most of them) with a red link in the Lao translation. By doing it, editing would be slightly easier for possible newcomers, we would know which words need and needn't be edited and the "what links here" feature (ໜ້າທີ່ເຊື່ອມຕໍ່ມາ) would show inter-related connections with other words. Anyway, I do not run a bot and I only know what they can and cannot do by watching them working, not by programming them myself, so I am not sure if such a thing would be easily feasible or not.

There are many bits about format to be discussed so better we just take our time with it. We should work step by step on it. As long as your bot keeps adding new material with the same format it has been doing so far, I think we should not have big problems adapting it later by using the bot itself if we should change anything. Regards.--Piolinfax (:)) ໑໘:໔໗, ໒໕ ພຶດສະພາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC)

Thanks for very detailed suggestions. I will implement 2 first. Regards. (Tuinui ໐໓:໒໒, ໒໖ ພຶດສະພາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC))

ຄວາມໝາຍຂອງ ຄຳສັບຕ່າງປະເທດຢູ່ໃນພາສາຍີ່ປຸ່ນ ແລະ ໃນພາສາເຄົ້ານັ້ນ ອາດບໍ່ຄືກັນໂດຍສົມບູນ[ແກ້ໄຂ]

I have changed the capitals of some of the links to English words in the Japanese entries that TuinuiBot recently edited, most of them names of chemical elements or amino acids. What is the meaning of "ຄວາມໝາຍຂອງ ຄຳສັບຕ່າງປະເທດຢູ່ໃນພາສາຍີ່ປຸ່ນ ແລະ ໃນພາສາເຄົ້ານັ້ນ ອາດບໍ່ຄືກັນໂດຍສົມບູນ."? Is it the origin or etymology of the word? If it is so, アナグマ is the katakana adaptation of the very Japanese 穴熊 (literally meaning "hole [digger] bear") and アザラシ the one for 海豹 (literally "sea leopard"). Most Japanese do not write these words in kanji anymore and they use katakana instead. Hiragana is not so common with many animal names whose kanji is too difficult or too unusual to be used. On the other hand, if "ຄວາມໝາຍຂອງ ຄຳສັບຕ່າງປະເທດຢູ່ໃນພາສາຍີ່ປຸ່ນ ແລະ ໃນພາສາເຄົ້ານັ້ນ ອາດບໍ່ຄືກັນໂດຍສົມບູນ." means something like "translation", we should attach the "{{xx}}" language name template before those words. Regards. --Piolinfax (☞☺☜) ໑໙:໔໘, ໒໕ ພຶດສະພາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC)

Hi Piolinfax,
(1)Okay aout the uncapitalization of the words.
(2)"ຄວາມໝາຍຂອງ ຄຳສັບຕ່າງປະເທດຢູ່ໃນພາສາຍີ່ປຸ່ນ ແລະ ໃນພາສາເຄົ້ານັ້ນ ອາດບໍ່ຄືກັນໂດຍສົມບູນ." means "the meaning of loanwords in Japanese and in the original languages may not be completely the same".
カタカナ(katakana)‌ are mostly(but not all) used for loanwords from languages in Japanese, so I put the note. But アナグマ is not a Western loanword so it is not appropriate to put this note. That was my mistake and I will make it sure that loanwords and katakana words in Japanese are differentiated next time I use the bot to input new words. Thanks for the comments. Regards. (Tuinui ໐໓:໑໘, ໒໖ ພຶດສະພາ ໒໐໐໘ (UTC))

Lao collation[ແກ້ໄຂ]

Hello, I am currently adding some Thai (and through mutual intelligibility also Lao) vocab on no:wikt. Collation is rather difficult for both. I was wondering if Lao collation is much different from Thai collation, or if it is sufficient to rearrange the letters in the same way as is done for Thai (เมือง should alphabetically be มเือง, by extension for Lao ເມືອງ would be ມເືອງ). Furthermore: one letter which particularly puzzles me is the letter -ຽ-: Should it be collated as ຍ or ຢ or as itself (meaning that it would, according to Unicode ordering) end up after ໄ-. Or, to put it in a more easily understandable way: in Lao alphabetical order, which comes first: ໄຂ່ or ຂຽນ ? (I would appreciate if you could notify me at no:wikt when you answered.) V85 ໐໐:໔໔, ໑໖ ກຸມພາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)

Hello V85.
(1)Answering your 1st question would be difficult because I have tried none of them yet. However, whatever the method, it will likely to be easier in Lao, because the writing system of the language have been through several simplification efforts to get rid of the not-to-pronounce characters in words.
(2)ຽ was for "oi" in the past, so you can still sometime see old people use ຂ້ຽ (khoi) instead of ຂ້ອຍ for I. Now it is, in principle, used only as "ia". So it is actually the same as ເ-ຍ , the difference is you used it for words that needs close consonant. for example, ເກຍ is "kia" but ກຽນ is "kian" because kian has k (consonant) ia (vowel) and n(close consonant). Best regards. Tuinui ໐໖:໐໖, ໑໖ ກຸມພາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)
Thank you for your answer. V85 ໐໗:໔໗, ໑໖ ກຸມພາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)

Pig[ແກ້ໄຂ]

Thank you for correcting me on ໝູ; I am not so good with Lao (I only know some Thai), but I thought it was quite wrong that it should be translated as หนู. ;) V85 ໐໘:໑໖, ໔ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)

When I find some mistakes I will let you know. I look forward to working with you. ;) V85 ໐໘:໔໔, ໔ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)

Greetings and bot stuff[ແກ້ໄຂ]

Hi Tuinui, It seems you did a great and huge work here, I understand what you mean and I think the bot strategy is a good one, even if it produce some small mistake, like adding _ at the end of a word in translation section like in this one, if there no way to avoid I will just correct it when I'll pass by.

Another question about the bot work, and I know almost nothing about bots, but for example in the translation section, does the bot import data from translation section in other wiktionary ?? if it's the case would it be possible to know from where the bot take the information in the Summary box down the edit page like instead of (Import automatique) put something like (Import automatique from en.wiktionary) or the process is much more complicated than this ( I can believe it is ) so if there is any wrong information the person who review the entry can also check the source wiktionary and correct it if necessary.

Last thing I was thinking to add some lao words in french wiktionary, or at least in french wiktionary translation section, but I don't know anything about lao language, so if I do, I'll use « cross language check » from translation section in lo.wiktionary compare the translation from french, english and indonesian which I might know and then fill the translation section of the appropriate page on fr.wiktionary, adding ພູ, in montagne for example, what do you think about it ?? may be it will cause too much mistakes, anyway tell me Serpicozaure ໑໐:໔໖, ໔ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)

bot improvement[ແກ້ໄຂ]

Salut Tuini,

It's just about one thing I have noticed like in ນົກກາ but may apply to name related to botanic, zoology, whatever, many wikipedia seems to use the latin name to name those pages, even if there a « vernacular » name which is much widely used like corbeau in french for exemple, so can the bot compare the translation in latin with other and put a blank thing or something like en:Template:trreq instead of just fill the space which what might just be the latin name, tell me what you think about it , by this way did you ever consider Robert Ulman's Tbot code thks Serpicozaure ໑໒:໐໘, ໕ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)

Salut Serpicozaure. I noticed the same problem for Japanese and Thai or even the English wikipedia entries that I use as the start point. For example, some time loan words are used as title of Japanese version entries instead of more common original local ones. I put the more common translations (especially the Japanese and Thai ones) manually but I know this is not realistic if I have to do it alone.
Using interwiki links from wikipedia many not be a good idea from the first place. Though I don't understand what they really do yet, Robert's scripts may be the solution. I need sometime to understand them because they look automated and therefore quite different from the my methodology. I use a combination of R and Shell (Bash) scripts to semi-automatically do what I have been doing on Linux environment.
Make translations for those the same with Latin blank can be done easily. However since one word in one language can generally be translated to many in others, I still wonder if omitting the Latin ones will be the best way to deal with this. If someone will feel the blank, she or he can also rewrite the loan word from Latin as well as put additional translations. Or should I put notice that the translations are from wikipedia interwiki links and ask those with better knowledge of the language to correct or approve? Anyway, I will try to understand Robert's scripts. Best regards. Tuinui ໑໓:໒໗, ໕ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)

Thanks for your reply Tuinui, what do you think about using a colored background for the translation identical with Latin translation kind of thing that ttbc does in :en , just to give a warning to people who are looking for translation, and put a small notice to explain that's because of similarity with Latin translation, or we can have two differents background colors, one for normal ttbc and the other for the Latin stuff, and for the script take the time you need no matter, adding lao translation even allow me to find new word in Indonesian so it's great...Serpicozaure ໒໐:໐໘, ໕ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)

I will implement the ttbc in my next importation. By the way, I also recalled a lot of French and Russian words that I learned during my high school time. I also found similarity between Lao and Cambodian, as well as Japanese and Vietnamese words. May be this is what the wiki things are all about. The one that write will learn the most. Regards. Tuinui

Coding sequence[ແກ້ໄຂ]

I notice that in the word ນໍ້າຕານ, the first vowel ອຳ is coded not as a single entity, but as two: ອໍ + ອາ. This means that the lo article ນໍ້າຕານ is not given an interwiki link to no:ນ້ຳຕານ, because, technically, the titles are different. Which is the correct way of writing ອຳ in Lao? Should I code it as two seperate entities as is done here, or should I use the single ອຳ? V85 ໑໗:໔໓, ໕ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)

Hi V85. Personally I think they should be unified as ອຳ . I always use ຳ instead of combination of ໍ and າ but could not do so recently because the Linux environment that I use do not support this. I needed to shift to Linux because it was far more flexible to test and achieve the new ideas.
What make this problem worse is the fact that not a few Lao may still use ໍ and າ instead of ຳ. May be Don't you have this problem for Thai words? Sorry to answer by question, but please tell me how do you think about this. Regards. Tuinui ໐໓:໔໔, ໖ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)
I have only used Windows-nased OS, and, as such, it has never been a problem for me to type the unified ອຳ/อำ character (in bother cases it's on the 'e' button of the Qwerty-keyboard. Of course I have not looked at all thai words, but, generally, my impression is that they all use the character อำ, and not อํ + อา, which on a Thai keyboard is difficult to achieve (shift-U + k). Compare, for instance น้ำ with ນໍ້າ.
I just thought I would let you know of this, because it does hinder, to some extent, the creation of interwikis, and perhaps it's another thing to be aware of now that you have started using Linux. Thank you for all your help! V85 ໐໗:໓໕, ໖ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)
Your information is much appreciated, V85. Regards. Tuinui ໑໓:໐໖, ໖ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)k

Pity (: I had fun removing _ joking !!!![ແກ້ໄຂ]

Thks,

By the way, you know that I don't know how to read lao, so can you tell me if there is some template to warn about something on one page ex: if we can use that word ເຕົາໄຟ for the meaning en:chimney sense 1 also , like french do, cheminée means chimney and fireplace ( at least as long as I know :)), thks for everything Serpicozaure ໑໕:໒໘, ໖ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)

Thank you too for your help in this lonely wikt! If you mean on this wiktionary, then the answer should be "not yet" because I don't remember creating or seeing someone did this here yet. But I do plan to add alternative meanings and translations like in en:chimney. By the way, I have one question. Do wikt in other language allow phrases (What is this? What is your name? ...). Regards. Tuinui ໑໖:໑໒, ໖ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)
Depends on the wikt, but to me, it seems that most of them do. See e.g. en:believe you me, or th:ฉันรักคุณ. V85 ໑໘:໔໐, ໖ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)

Seems that fr. has that kind of things also fr:Catégorie:Locutions-phrases Serpicozaure ໑໙:໒໖, ໖ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)

Thank you guys for the info. I think I want to have some of the most used phrases here as well. Tuinui ໐໑:໑໙, ໗ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)

running for admin[ແກ້ໄຂ]

Hi tuinui,

As you you know I'm really new on this wiki (2 weeks only), but seems you're the only one really active, I don"t know about the admin nomination/election procedure on those small wikis but if you want to just go for it, regards Serpicozaure ໐໗:໔໑, ໑໒ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)

Thank you for your encouragement. I became a sysop at lo.wiki, a few years back, in order to localize the interface because there was no betawiki yet at that time, but with only two votes!. This wiki is much larger than lo.wiki and I think I need (not want) the admin status to maintain (delete and protect pages) it efficiently. By the way, do not hesitate to give me another hint to improve this wiki. I can actually add new entries much faster but am refraining from doing so because I want to keep improving the way I do so by responding to others' (your) feed backs. Your last suggestion was very tough but really good one. Regards. Tuinui ໐໙:໑໔, ໑໒ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)
This sounds like a good idea Tuini. Nominate yourself for sysop on lo:wikt's discussion forum (I don't what it's called, on English-language projects it's usually called the water post, or something similar). After the community has been given a week to respond to your nomination, you post a request on meta for sysop-status.
From Special:Recent changes, it seems that it will be Serpicozaure and me who are the eligible voters. ;-) V85 ໒໓:໐໕, ໑໓ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)
Thank you V85. It has always been a small community for me on the net. May be internet access is the main reason why few Lao participate. Anyway we can help make the internet a better place by proving free knowledge. Regards. Tuinui ໐໐:໕໑, ໑໔ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)

invitation[ແກ້ໄຂ]

As an Administrator, you are allowed into #wikimedia-admin, the cross-wiki coordination channel for Wikimedia administrators. Any member of the channel can invite you in temporarily, but you need an invite exemption from a channel operator to get in whenever you want. Please come to #wikimedia and ask for an invite.

Any admin from any project is welcome and it is a good place for cross-wiki coordination of vandal and spam fighting. It is also useful for new admins to contact more experienced admins in real-time to get help with the more complicated admin tasks such as history merges/splits and importing via Special:Import.

Please remember to translate the interface at betawiki: only and to upload images preferably at commons:

Please note that Your sysop status will expire 18-09-2009, please leave a note at m:SRP a few days before it expires to prolong it or if the community grows You can hold a voting.

Thank you

Best regards, --ນົກ (:> )=| ໑໒:໐໐, ໑໘ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)

P.S. I noticed that users could not choose predefined entries when they create a new page, if You are interested in providing such I could help You with it, ມີເດຍວິກິ:Noexactmatch and ມີເດຍວິກິ:Newarticletext could be modified for that purpose. Best regards, --ນົກ (:> )=| ໑໒:໐໔, ໑໘ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)
Thank you for the invitation. Your help on predefined entries would also be much appreciated. I am trying to finalize predefined forms myself as you may have seen that my bot still revise them from time to time. I will have some of them fixed and ask for your help soon. Best regards. Tuinui ໐໒:໕໑, ໑໙ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)
P.S. For your info, ນົກ are mostly names of beuatiful ladies in Laos and maybe also Thailand.

re:a template for new article in lo.wikt[ແກ້ໄຂ]

Hello Tuinui, in response to [໒], You can use ແມ່ແບບ:ແມ່ແບບ (ຄຳນາມ) (or move it to a better title), in MediaWiki:Noexactmatch add something like:


{| class="plainlinks" cellpadding="5" rules="all" style="border: 1px solid #AAAAAA; border-collapse:collapse; text-align:center;"
|- bgcolor="#D2D8E6"
| <small>[[ຄຳນາມ]]</small>
|- style="font-weight:bold;"
| <font color="#ba0000">New ຄຳນາມ</font>

<inputbox>
type=create
bgcolor=#F4F4F4
width=24
default=$1
preload=ແມ່ແບບ:ແມ່ແບບ (ຄຳນາມ)
break=yes
</inputbox>
|}

And to MediaWiki:Newarticletext something like:

{{ #switch: {{NAMESPACE}} | = 
--Put the default text that is in that interface-message here--
<strong style="font-size: 120%;">Create a new page:</strong>
<table>
<tr>
<td class="plainlinks" width="170px" align="left" style="vertical-align: middle; text-align:center; background-color:lightgray; border:2px outset #ccc; padding: .2em .4em .2em .4em;">'''[http://lo.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title={{SUBJECTPAGENAMEE}}&action=edit&section=&preload=ແມ່ແບບ:ແມ່ແບບ_(ຄຳນາມ)&editintro= ຄຳນາມ]'''</td>
</tr></table>
| }}

If You want to add Categories or Templates to ແມ່ແບບ:ແມ່ແບບ_(ຄຳນາມ), You can do that like this:

{<includeonly>{sometemplate}</includeonly>}
[<includeonly>[Category:somecategory]</includeonly>]

{{<includeonly>subst:</includeonly>PAGENAME}} <- would generate the entry name

Best regards, --ນົກ (:> )=| ໑໗:໐໕, ໑໙ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)

Sabai-dee Jao! :D[ແກ້ໄຂ]

Hey Tuinui! I just want to let you know that you're so amazing with all the work you've done for Lao Wiktionary. :) Thank you for welcome! :)
--Alifshinobi ໐໓:໔໔, ໒໒ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)

Anglais[ແກ້ໄຂ]

Hello! In French, capitalisation of nationality has a different meaning than in English. In English, we always cpitalise, both when we are talking about a language, and a person, and the adjectives describing something pertaining to a certain country. So: If you are English, you most likely speak English as your mother tongue. Or: A Norwegian is a person from Norway.

In French, it is a little bit different: No adjective in French is capitalised (unless it is the first word of a sentence), so. e.g. un homme anglais: an English man. (It sounds a bit odd in English, but nevermind. ;-) When it comes to nouns, it depends on what you mean: If you you mean the language, you do not capitalise: anglais, francais, allemand is ພາສາອັງກິດ, ພາສາຝຣັ່ງ and ພາສາເຢຍລະມັນ (these are all masculin nouns). If you capitalise, you are talking about a person from that country: Anglais, Francais, Allemand: ຄົນອັງກິດ, ຄົນຝຣັ່ງ, ຄົນເຢຍລະມັນ. These can then be made feminine by adding an -e Anglaise, Francaise, Allemande ຜູ້ຍິງອັງກິດ, ຜູ້ຍິງຝຣັ່ງ and ຜູ້ຍິງເຢຍລະມັນ, and plural by adding an -s. So, un Allemand parle allemand: A German speaks German.

If you go to w:fr:Anglais (homonymie) (the pointer page for "Anglais"), you will see that the last one is: "nom propre, pour désigner les Anglais, les habitants de l'Angleterre", capitalised to refer to the inhabitants of England, while the article w:fr:Anglais, never capitalises the word anglais.

I hope this helps. ເຂົ້າໃຈບໍ່ ? V85 ໑໖:໓໖, ໓໑ ມີນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)

ເຂົ້າໃຈແລ້ວ! I got your point perfectly now. I also see from fr:anglais that some other languages like Breton, Bulgarian, etc. also apply the same rule to distinguish nationality from language. I will fix this before going any furthur. Thank again for the suggestion. Best regards. Tuinui ໐໑:໒໒, ໑ ເມສາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)
I am always happy to help my fellow wiktionarians. ;-) I don't know either Breton or Bulgarian, so I won't say anything about how the rules for capitalisation are in those languages, but it wouldn't surprise me if the rules for Breton are similar to those of French. Note that some languages, e.g. Norwegian, never capitalises words describing nationality, so that: nordmann, norsk, norsk (ຄົນນອກແວ ພາສານອກແວ and adjective). Do leave me a message if I can help you with anything else. :-) V85 ໑໗:໒໙, ໑ ເມສາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)
See this page for a list of which languages capitalise what. V85 ໒໓:໑໓, ໑໕ ມີຖຸນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)
Thank V85. I will try to resume my work soon, but just can't say when now. By the way, can you tell me more about what could/should I do regarding your comment on the main page. Regards. Tuinui ໐໑:໓໗, ໑໖ ມີຖຸນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)
I understand: Working on Wiktionary can be very timeconsuming. I have tried explaining what needs to be done on the mainpage. (It's just a little tweak, nothing big, but, apparently, it's important...) If I can be of any further assistance, do no hesitate to contact me. V85 ໑໐:໑໕, ໑໖ ມີຖຸນາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)

Letter ຊ[ແກ້ໄຂ]

How do you pronounce the letter ຊ ? I thought it was "ch" (similar to Thai ช), but I have looked on some of the Wikipedias, and they all say that it is pronounced as "s", so that ຊ້າງ (elephant) would be pronounced "sang". Is this correct? V85 ໑໘:໑໔, ໑໖ ເມສາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)

Below are a copy of my answer at your talk page.
ສະບາຍດີ V85. Both "ສ" and "ຊ" are pronounced as "s". For your info, there is a good article about pronunciation and romanization of Lao at w:en:Romanization of Lao. Best regards.
Goodness me, you learn something new everyday... ;-) Thank you for your answer. V85 ໐໙:໐໓, ໑໗ ເມສາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)
I will have to think a little about it. LC and BGN are almost identical for the consonants, so it doesn't matter much which one you choose. (LC is slightly easier because it transcribes ຊ as 's' and not the ambiguous 'x'. The problem arises when it comes to the vowels. To keep the transcriptions as simple as possible, one should avoid diacritics and digraphs. (Especially, since you say you plan on not marking the tones.) Using macron to mark long vowels, though, is a good idea; I support that aspect.
The problem is that letters such as 'ư' and 'ǫ' are ambiguous, unless one has a decent knowledge of languages. In fact, the latter 'ǫ', is most commonly used to mark nasal pronounciation: [õ], not the one it represents in LC transliteration of Lao. I'll get back to you later today or tomorrow. V85 ໑໐:໐໘, ໑໗ ເມສາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)
Thank you very much for your comments. If readability is the problem, I think I will also add another phonetic expression style such as IPA so people can choose the one they know the most. The LC style romanization was generate automatically by R script (which I am planning to rewrite in Python so more people can make use of it), therefor adding another styles wouldn't be that difficult. Best regards. Tuinui ໐໐:໑໐, ໑໘ ເມສາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)
I have looked over what you've done, and I see that you have created a link to 'LC', which links to a page on lo:WP which doesn't exist. I would suggest that you either create that page yourself, or you link to the page on en:WP (or another).
If I were you, I would make two small changes to the LC scheme: change ǫ for o. You no longer seperate between the vowels ອົອ and ອອ (just like in en:w:RTGS), because the two sounds are very similar (and for someone who doesn't know how to read Lao, this will be more useful). Similarly, I would suggest changing ư for ü. The reason is simple: ư represents the soun ອຶ in Vietnamese, so it is a very accurate portrayal of the sound. The problem with it though, is that very few people who read Latin script, know how to read Vietnamese, but most will have see the German letter ü, which represents a very similar sound. The combination ưa then becomes üa. (Compared to RTGS's uea, which is inlegible.) Having made these changes, you no longer are using LC, but I think it will be more clear for people having no knowledge of Lao.
The ideal would, of course, be to use IPA, as it describes the sounds accurately (even if you choose not to have tone markers). The problem with IPA compared to romanisation is that only people who get turned on by dictionaries know how to read it... 'chæd' is easier to read than 'tʃɛʈ' (and there's no good reason why I used that special t in the end, it's only to make it a little more difficult to read for people who don't know IPA :D ). V85 ໑໑:໐໔, ໑໘ ເມສາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)

Allow me to begin without ":"

below is a copy of my answer your Norwegian Wiktionary talkpage in case someone else are following our discussions here.
Thank you again for your suggestion on my talk page.
(1) I will change LC link so it point to English version of this page. I think this is better because only those who do not read Lao need the explanation, and English will probably be the one most people understand.
(2) I fully agree with your view on IPA. I also agree that LC style should be adapted to be even easier to read. You may not believe that there is no official standard way to romanize Lao in Laos, but I believe that a practical one that may be create in the future would be very similar to en:w:RTGS because of closeness of the two languages. There are quite a number of foreigners who speak fluent Japanese but only read Romanized Japanese characters, while almost any Japanese people also type Japanese in Computer through choosing the right characters input from romanized keyboards. The same should hold for Chinese. I also heard that even Vietnamese fluent speakers write Vietnamese without those complicated tone marks. But I do think I should not use only something that I created or decided myself. So how about this. I will add something like RL (Romanized Lao) using only plain Alphabets on top of LC style one, and IPA the most difficult to read on the bottom.Tuinui ໑໒:໐໗, ໑໘ ເມສາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)
Tuinui, my friend, you are, of course, at liberty to do whatever you like on lo:wikt! I am just making suggestions as to what I think is the best solution, which is based on both my interest in language (I think that's a common denominator for most of the people working on Wiktionary) and my experience of living in Thailand, and being a foreigner able to read Thai, while most of the other foreigners around me were not able to do so.
Unless you use a very elaborate scheme, such as IPA (with tone markers!), almost any way of writing a language will only be an approximation of the spoken language. For a tonal language, like Lao, once we have removed the tone markers, we have already rendered the romanisation much less useful, as several words will be written exactly the same, but be pronounced differently. (Like the Westerner who was telling her Thai friends about snow in her home country, but was instead of snow using a word that ended in หมา.)
One thing which I find interesting, is that when I romanise Thai for my personal use, I also transliterate ho nam, even though it's completely unnecessary (as it has no phonetic value), but in my eyes it's necessary: 'hma' means 'dog', while 'ma' would be 'horse' or 'come'. In your RL-scheme, of course, you should not transliterate ho nam.
Most dictionaries have some sort of phonetic writing scheme, as it is very rare that a language's orthography is 100% phonetic, but most will take some shortcuts, one reason being that most languages include allophones, and, as speakers of the language consider them to be the same sound, there is no point in distinguishing between them. One example is French wiktionary, which in its phonetics section always transliterates r as 'ʁ', though in some cases it is pronounced 'χ' (and a truly phonetic transcription should respect this distinction). The point being: I personally don't see anything wrong with you 'inventing' a separate lo:wikt transliteration scheme for Lao; just make sure you create a page: ພິເສດ:ຂຽນພາສາລາວໃຊ້ຕັວລາແຕັງ (or something similar) which describes how it works.
To have a simple transliteration scheme, we should avoid all unnecessary diacritics and digraphs (letter combinations used to represent a single sound), especially digraphs for vowels. The problem is that the 26 letter Latin alphabet is rarely sufficient to write any language without digraphs, or using diacritics/inventing new letters. One thing I do like about LC: the use of the macron is consistent: to mark a long vowel, the other diacritics, as I said, seems a bit random, especially since they only apply to one vowel. What do you think, do you have any suggestions for a romanisation scheme? V85 ໒໓:໓໕, ໑໘ ເມສາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)
P.S. I have taken the liberty of creating a user page for you on no: so that I have a direct link to your Lao userpage. ;-) I will continue to just post my replies to you here, because this is your home Wikt, so I know you ge them, but thank you for double posting yours; that way I know when you've replied without having to run over to lo:wikt all the time. V85 ໒໓:໓໕, ໑໘ ເມສາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)


Again, below is my post at your talk page.

God dag, V85. Thank you for reminding me my liberty!
  • I am beginning to think that I need the IPA with tone markers. I have actually made some researches last night, unfortunately only to found out that there are already more than one. According to my understanding at this point, it should not be impossible to write a computer script to automate the transliteration. So I will choose, based on my liberty, one of them and proceed.
  • The macron in LC can be well replaced by double vowels, so "ະ" becomes "a" and "າ" becomes "aa".
Thank you for my talk page in this wiktionary.

Below is not question nor answer but just a thought on transliteration that I want to share with you.

Though I have done this several times over, I have tried to think again what are the points of transliteration (to Latin or similar writing systems). The answer that satisfied me the most was, because of the dominance and wide-spread of Latin-character based technologies and cultures in today's world, transliteration can therefore lower the costs of utilizing new technologies for non-Latin-character based cultures, while at the same time lower the barriers for people from Latin-character trying to learn non-Latin-character based languages. Many technologies including typewriter, computer, programming languages etc. were invented by people who should have known very little about scripts other than Latin-based ones. So people from other cultures need to adapt or inventing alternative technologies themselves. Many foreigners should have also given up writing Japanese, Vietnamese and Chinese simplified writing system using only plain alphabets of these languages did not exist.
So I think it is the interest of Lao and foreigner interested in Laos to have a "practical" system of transliteration from Lao to Latin. Having mastered (?) Japanese by started from romanized script of the language, I prefer the simpler to complex transliteration systems. The good point of plain alphabet is that they are relatively easy to learn, not to mention that many people in many countries should have already come across them by the time they graduate from high-school. I think it does not make sense to use a difficult tools to learn difficult things. This may not be that simple for tone languages like Lao, but to tell the truth, 99% of my Japanese friends, some with practical knowledge of the language, can not manage to pronounce the tone markers correctly. So I thought it was not that much help to ask them to strictly follow the tone markers, especially when they just began to learn the language.
Lastly, about your story of a Western man who misunderstood his Thai girl friend by telling her about "snow" (ຫິມະ in Lao) in his country. This can surly also happen in Laos :)

Best regards. Tuinui ໐໓:໒໒, ໒໐ ເມສາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)

Yiddish language[ແກ້ໄຂ]

Hi, Your TuinuiBot import all yiddish words without diacritic characters. Correct spelling is in Polish Wiktionary. Regards, --Joystick ໐໒:໔໒, ໑໗ ພຶດສະພາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)

Hi Joystick. Thank you for the precious info. I will try to correct the spelling when I resume my work next month. Regards. Tuinui ໐໑:໒໑, ໑໘ ພຶດສະພາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)

Sysop flag expired[ແກ້ໄຂ]

Your temp sysop flag expired today. If you need more time, please, make a request on Meta and/or make a votation here, in your community. Thanks. Alex Pereira ໑໑:໑໙, ໑໘ ກັນຍາ ໒໐໐໙ (UTC)

hi![ແກ້ໄຂ]

Hi Tinui,

Sorry, I can't speak Lao. I would know what script do you use to create articles automatically. If you have a response, you may reply here or in my page over there. Thanks in advance and good continuation. :) --Jagwar ໑໐:໕໕, ໒໗ ມີຖຸນາ ໒໐໑໐ (UTC)

Your administrator status on lo.wikipedia[ແກ້ໄຂ]

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